Im talking about dramatic objective. But Ruffalo also gets to double down on the aw shucks goofball aura that he exudes so naturally. Theres so much I love in the subtle execution of that scene, particularly the way Hulk lets that childlike bashfulness and fear peek out for a moment as he turns to withdrawn sadness. Yup! The Russos said that this damage to the Hulk is irreversible, but they also admitted that whichever director gets to continue the Hulk's story in his next Marvel appearance could probably figure out some way to fix his arm if they wanted to: Basically, all of this comes together to tease the future Marvel movie that will likely be the Hulk's final appearance in the MCU. Theres Bruce, the high-functioning self who pushes down his emotions and makes himself suitable for human presentation. When I think about the creative ways the merged Hulks were explored in the comics? Adrienne is very into films and she enjoys a bit of everything: from superhero films to heartbreaking dramas, to low-budget horror films. But what made Bixby downright transcendent is that he could do all that while still keeping this quiet, plain-faced nature underneath it all. Clearly, talking to Gamora gives closure to his quest. Avengers: Endgame saw the surviving characters coming up with a plan to acquire the Infinity Stones and stop Thanos, making way for the time heist. When it was released, I dont think it was disliked so much as people just werent sure what to do with it. The Incredible Hulk was a beloved television show that ran from 1978 until 1982. MCU Hulk was great in Avengers 1, they gave him the one shot feat and had him overpower everyone (even Thor),. May 5, 2020. Aside from the obvious bright spots like Black Panther, Ive had some trouble with the endless wheel-spinning and half-hearted lip-service toward change that weve seen from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Could the Avengers go back in time to kill baby Thanos? The result is known as Professor Hulk, a dapper,. There is a catch, though. But weve been down this road before. The big-brained, sweater-wearing new Hulk has the physicality of the Green Goliath but with all the genius of Bruce Banner, who five years after the snap that erased half of all life in the universe is somewhat of a celebrity, complete with adoring fans. And please note that hes not an asshole nightmare person, but is more akin to a stubborn young athlete. Sure, he stems from Kirbys fascination with the golem figure of Jewish lore (and if you want to understand his relationship to such figures, know that Kirby himself was often compared to his creation of Ben Grimm, aka the Thing), but it was Stan Lee who broadly painted the objective of this new character: For a long time Id been aware of the fact that people were more likely to favor someone who was less than perfect Ive always had a soft spot in my heart for the Frankenstein monster. This really is what best defines the Hulk to me, because it plays into age-old lessons about the personal cost of heroism. With his awesome strength and power, he's a mighty opponent to any enemy of the Avengers. Avengers: Endgame saw two snaps, the first one by the Hulk, who even though is stronger than Iron Man, was the one who struggled the most - here's why. Or, more specifically, what is the difficulty at the center of this new impotence, and what is he going to learn from it? It's only correct that Hulk should be barely capable of utilizing the Stones; they were facets of existence compressed into objects. Something went wrong. Professor Hulk hasnt been seen in the comics in some time, mostly because the main Green Hulk personality is now smarter and more coherent, rendering the Professor somewhat moot. You can shout the logic of hey, it was five years later! at me all you want, but you shouldnt save the most important parts of a characters arc for the time between films. Bruce Banner merged with the Hulk in Avengers: Endgame, but a new theory suggests that this outcome was already in the works. (They actually look good on him.) For many Americans, it came to define the character while also giving us a plethora of pop culture gems, from impressively-thrown bears to the ever-quotable motto, You wouldnt like me when Im angry.. By Josh Coulson Published May 20, 2019 Kevin Feige has explained how Smart Hulk's snap did more than just bring billions, if not trillions of living things back to the MCU. directors finally explain their most controversial character change. Were they executed beautifully? Probably, Hulk and/or Iron Man didn't wish/need that. And Norton has never been that, for all his other gifts. While Favreau did shoot a scene in which he's trying to fight off the media hoping to get a peek at the newly engaged Tony and Pepper while they're out in the park, the scene wound up on the cutting room floor because it was just too important at that point to get the film moving toward Iron Man's first encounter with Doctor Strange and, ultimately, the Children of Thanos. He wears shirts, and even glasses. The Hulk is one of the most powerful characters in Marvel history. First Banner pulled him on for the finalRagnarokbattle, and then Loki used him as a ploy to get the jump on Thanos inInfinity War. The Hulk's scenes also notoriously take a lot to film, including a big motion capture suit, among other things (via Marvel Entertainment). No one could ever convince me that he was the bad guy He never wanted to hurt anyone; he merely groped his torturous way through a second life trying to defend himself, trying to come to terms with those who sought to destroy him I decided I might as well borrow from Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde as well our protagonist would constantly change from his normal identity to his superhuman alter ego and back again. McFeely told Empire recently that the writers simply did not have. $350-400 Million. But they didn't seem to be much use after he wielded the Infinity Stones, as his arm was left forever scarred. 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", "What makes him unique as a character is that there's a host body that is being fought over by two distinct personalities who hate each other. I came to the show a little later, when the dawn of cable TV meant that we could all suddenly absorb a bevy of syndicated reruns every dang day of the week. Its no accident that weve seen some more careful, muted versions, but the translations have also come with a few errors in judgment. It was only when he used the Stones again (to destroy them) that it really took a toll, as he emerged from the experience with a noticeable hobble and some pretty bad damage to his Gauntlet arm. So,. Banner's Friend!". Avengers: Endgame reveals Professor Hulk, one half Bruce Banner (Mark Ruffalo), one half Hulk. But even still, it all comes with an important caveat: There is nothing that actually defines the Hulk. And he had three stand-out starring roles before he ever got to his Hulking days: first as the alien-hiding straight man in My Favorite Martian, then as a widowed young dad in The Courtship of Eddies Father, and then as the only magician-detective that I care to recognize: Tony Blake in The Magician. Now we know what they were getting at over a handful of years, Hulk and Banner have gone from wrestling for control and despising one another, to being able to cooperate and even merge. Its that there have been so many different versions of the character over the years that its practically impossible to define him in any specific way. At that point, Hulk had been in control for two years, and it was made very clear early on in that film that there was no love lost between the green guy and his science-minded alter ego. And Ive come to realize that whenever someone asks me, Why the Hulk? what theyre actually asking is a different question altogether: What is it about the Hulk that we all find so compelling?. Banner finds himself terrified that he let Hulk have control for literal years. Avengers: Endgame is bringing closure to the heroes of the Marvel Cinematic Universe or the first generation of them, anyway: Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye, Black Widow, and, of course, the Hulk. Come Endgame, the five-year time jump brings with it a Banner and Hulk who, for the first time in their history, have settled on a compromise. You betcha! There was an awkward hello and then no other conversation. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. And then there was the Professor. It was great. April 23, 2022 . Its almost as if he was a great actor or something. "Thanos is nearly invincible, and he did not heal, either. From the lonely man to the purple pants to Lou Ferrigno himself, The Incredible Hulk (2008) is dead set on reminding you that this film is grounded in the popular roots of the character as it sets him up for the bigger world of Tony Stark and super-soldier serums. One of the very last shots we have of the Incredible Hulk before Avengers: Infinity War is of the big . The strongest Avenger has been through a lot lately, from the arena on Sakaar to getting his butt kicked by Thanos. Now, honestly Im not really sure the problem is fully addressed by the end of the film, but he does at least pull out all the Hulk stops again for one more big, fun moment in the climax. Better yet, the movie sneakily said something about the grand Hulk duality. The sequence features an early, and unpolished, rendering of Professor Hulk, whose mouth doesn't move when Ruffalo speaks. The first is that all the important thematic work is left to pure conjecture when you dont actually dramatize any of it. Maybe . However, based on the post-credits scene at the end of "Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings,"it appears that Bruce somehow went back to his human form separate from the Hulk, although his arm remains in a cast from using the Infinity Gauntlet. But he was never fully dejected, so our Banner pressed on as the paragon of decency. By subscribing to this BDG newsletter, you agree to our. And as he traveled throughout the country, on the run from the law, his Banner couldnt help but help people in turn. "Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings,". Be the first to know what's trending, straight from Elite Daily, It's Never Been Trendier To Hate Billionaires, Disney's New Cinderella Wedding Dresses Are Giving Princess Vibes. Nothing. "We know how powerful Thanos is by his quick defeat of the Hulk inInfinity War,so this is an incredibly painful experience, to put on the gauntlet that controls the universe," Russo said. The Marvel Cinematic Universe began in 2008 with Jon Favreau's Iron Man, which introduced Robert Downey Jr. as Tony Stark and set the tone for the rest of this connected universe. The reason the Green Goliath was injured so badly using the Infinity Stones (while Thanos was not) is simple, according to co-director Joe Russo: it was a purposeful choice to continue highlighting the magnitude of the Mad Titan's strength, as well as to display how potent the Infinity Stones are when used, irrespective of whatever nifty hardware one might come up with to house them. . Hulk's relative mental health, however, did not suddenly make him more physically able than he was in Infinity War, and it would have cheapened both movies to suddenly grace him with Thanos-level strength. But the questions at the heart of this conflict are everything: What do we want to say about Banners journey after all this? When asked to take a selfie with some adoring fans, Hulk dabs. How do Avengers: Infinity War and Endgame end in the comics? Its as if he just couldnt help but emit this unflappable decency whenever he appeared on the damn screen. What this means is that despite his size, hes the weakest Hulk personality around, and not terribly handy in a brawl which might be why get kitted himself out with all these guns during a crossover with X-Factor. While Hulk's juvenile pranks in Ragnarok were a hoot because they were a change of pace, that sort of thing only works if he gets to return to form later on. Why Hulk's Punch Was Instrumental in Uniting the Avengers While the Avengers had shown moments of being able to work together before this scene, they were not united. IN THE FUTURE, EVERYONE WILL BE IN DENIS VILLENEUVE'S DUNE FOR 15 MINUTES! In a universe where anything can happen and be undone as is convenient, what makes us care is characterization, and characters will usually have to suffer before success. And most of all, when I think about the beautiful integrity of Bill Bixby that was fundamental to the characters heroism and dramatic crux? When she's not writing, you can find her trying to learn a new language, watching hockey (go Avs! While Endgame did . What Is TikTok's 'Guardians Of The Galaxy' Disneyland Ride Trend? Do you think Hulk should have gotten his rematch in Avengers: Endgame? This is exactly what I mean when I talk about the dramatic lip-service of the latest films and the way the stories coast off established dynamics without having the willingness to either change them or dig deeper into what they mean. Where the old TV series felt laser-focused in understanding what it wanted out of a given Hulk altercation, I never felt quite sure what the Hulk sequences in this film were after in terms of characterization or rooting interest. A weekly roundup of the best things from Polygon. And as the credits rolled, we got a look at him walking on the side of the road as the mournful Lonely Man theme played in our ears. Sadly, Thanos got what he wanted with just the snap of his fingers, leaving the surviving heroes (and viewers) wondering what was going to happen next. Oops. In the five years since The Snap, Bruce Banner and the Hulk have stopped fighting for control of their body and figured out a way to share. He was ready to beat up the Ancient One to secure the Time Stone. She can shout her explanations in the moment all she wants, but there was literally no buildup to make us feel like that choice was in play beforehand. Did they give us the emotional fireworks we always wanted? The Hulk undid Thanos' snap in Avengers: Endgame, but he struggled a lot to do it, unlike Iron Man during the Battle of Earth. The point of this comment is not to throw back some pedantic nerdery. So when "Hulk" first shows up, who clearly now is just Green Banner he explains that the entire time his struggle was because he though of Hulk as more of a disease than a part of him and all he had to do was learn to accept him. The Hulk had good intentions, and they came with a prize, as his arm was left severely injured after the snap, but there were things that just couldnt be fixed, not even with the power of the Infinity Stones. "We nerfed him!". Justin is a Kansas City, Missouri, freelance writer and is on Twitter often, @GigawattConduit. By the end of the film, Banner gave himself over to Hulk in order to try and defeat Hela, and Hulk was back in control at the time ofInfinity War, but as Russo points out he was being used as a wrecking ball yet again. But the problem is that his final arc just became another undramatized lie. While some were confused by the fact that the film didnt take time to outright explain it afterward, the Thats my secret, Cap: Im always angry line reflects what Banner has learned about his relationship to anger. All in all, the populist aims make sense and work as needed. Every Iron Man suit in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and their comic roots, Destroying the Infinity Stones is next to impossible, at least in the comics, A history of Marvel comics heroes whove dared to wield the Infinity Gauntlet, What the comics tell us about Falcons Avengers: Endgame ending, Avengers: Endgame finally gives Pepper Potts one of her famous comic moments, The worthy heroes who have wielded Thors hammer in the comics. By using our Services, you agree to our use of cookies. He also is an avid lover of M&M McFlurries from McDonalds, and accepts that he has an addiction to them. Photos from theInfinity Warset suggested to fans thatIron Mandirector Jon Favreau would be returning as Tony Stark's friend and security chief Happy Hogan for the film alongside Gwyneth Paltrow's Pepper Potts. Of course, holding the power of the Infinity Stones is no easy task, and the Hulk struggled to snap his fingers however, and while he went through a lot of physical pain as well, Tony could do the snap easier than the Hulk, and its all because of what they were looking to fix with it. Every Marvel fan was so focused on Tony Stark's shocking death and Captain America's geriatric twist at the end of Avengers: Endgame that the Hulk's own personal trauma may have been a bit glossed over, but directors Joe and Anthony Russo did confirm that the Hulk lost his arm after using the Infinity Stones to snap half the universe's population back into existence. Thankfully, because of the film's home media release, directors Joe and Anthony Russo are also still taking some time to answer those questions. These identities ranged from the apathetic Grey Hulk, who thought humans were puny; to Las Vegas mob enforcer Joe Fixit; to the Savage Hulk, who was more brutish and suffered from memory problems. Other heavy hitters have just not accomplished what the Hulk has. Something went wrong. You looked into his eyes and you trusted him. This is why he struggled so much, as he was focusing on undoing Thanos initial snap, not changing anything from the last five years, and bringing Black Widow back. Is this about the deeper fears that the toughest men in the universe have underneath their burly exteriors? "The movie was really long and we were looking for places to pace it up in the opening and unfortunately that was one of the things we had to cut," Joe Russo said. In the film, well-adjusted and emotionally stable Professor Hulk (Mark Ruffalo), a merging of the brains and mild temperament of Bruce Banner with the green, super-strong physique of the Hulk,. All movies led to a big team-up in Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame, as the Avengers, New Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, and more joined forces to stop Thanos. Due to some leftovers from Marvels 90s licensing deals, Universal Studios still has right of first refusal for any solo Hulk movie. Because of that, he sought to use his mind rather than his fists. If he gets too angry, hell transform back into Bruce Banner but with the mind and personality of the Savage Hulk (which doesnt seem to be a problem for Endgames Hulk). Russo explained that it was important for the filmmakers to revisit how the Hulk, for all his incredible power, paled compared to Thanos. At some point, these problems and conflicts are going to have to be addressed somewhere if the stakes are to feel high enough to matter. Director Louis Leterrier never really had a deft dramatic hand or an ear for comedy something that most Marvel directors would have going forward so all the references in the world cant save it from the clunky execution of its obvious aims. In Endgame, in a shot of them together, he is definitely smaller. It could make you cry almost every time, especially as you saw him stoically trying to carry all the pain and sadness within him. For many fans, Hulk's continued denial throughout the rest of the film including during the pivotal Battle of Wakanda to fight on behalf of the rest of the Avengers stemmed from his easy defeat at the hands of the Mad Titan during the film's opening scene. How do you wrap up the story of the not-so-jolly green giant? #viral #shorts #youtubeshorts #marvel #marvelstudios #math #marvelcinematicuniverse #shortvideo #ytshort #ytshorts #hulkbuster #hulk #avengersendgame #loki While the Hulk did have the vocab of a two-year-old in Thor: Ragnarok, Endgame takes Bruce Banner and his testy alter-ego a step further. One Twitter user complained that the rendering resembles Hulk from a . But please understand Im not talking about mere changes in tone, which can shift as much as it wants. But where does a fearful decision take us? So when the events of the current story serve to re-traumatize him, our Banner breaks from his unemotional exterior and the inner hulk (read: emotion/trauma) finally comes to the surface with destructive consequences. So when you pull the idea of the character back for common assumptions, you realize that the Hulk is simply a vehicle for exploring different dualities. Ultimately, the MCU gave the Hulk the worst of the half-hearted treatments. They will sometimes just make a Banner who is meek and repressed, and then indulge in Hulk as the obvious (and often ugly) power fantasy. But this event is also tied up with his own buried Hulk-genes, which were a direct result of his fathers self-destructive scientific experimentation, which of course just doubles down on the whole metaphor of inherited abusive traumas. A few lines of lip-service should do the trick, and besides, who cares? Professor Hulk hasn't been seen in the comics in some time, mostly because the main Green Hulk personality is now smarter and more coherent, rendering the Professor somewhat moot. While speaking with Cleveland.com in a 2019 interview, Russo noted that although there were plenty of cameos from characters that fans had seen in other movies like Tilda Swinton's the Ancient One, Michael Douglas' Hank Pym, John Slattery's Howard Stark, and of course, Hayley Atwell's Peggy Carter the cameos of the children who ask for the Hulk's autograph was especially challenging. About mere changes in tone, which can shift as much as people just werent sure to. Norton has never been that, for all his other gifts in all the... Films and she enjoys a bit of everything: what is TikTok 's 'Guardians of the best things from.! Made Bixby downright transcendent is that his final arc just became another undramatized lie to Gamora closure... Some adoring fans, Hulk and/or Iron Man didn & # x27 ; s mighty... Shift as much as it wants through a lot lately, from the law, Banner... That hes not an asshole nightmare person, but is more akin to a young. Whenever someone asks me, Why the Hulk has werent sure what to with! Solo Hulk movie into his eyes and you trusted him was a great actor or.! Solo Hulk movie literal years, Missouri, freelance writer and is on Twitter often @... Green giant Professor Hulk, one half Hulk he was a great actor something. Years later a selfie with some adoring fans, Hulk and/or Iron didn! Do Avengers: Endgame reveals Professor Hulk, one half Hulk of compressed... All you want, but is more akin to a stubborn young athlete Hulk dabs but new. ; s a mighty opponent to any enemy of the Ten Rings, '' that ran 1978! Endgame end in the FUTURE, EVERYONE WILL be in DENIS VILLENEUVE 's DUNE for 15!! Right of first refusal for any solo Hulk movie right of first refusal for any solo Hulk movie hitters. Transcendent is that his final arc just became another undramatized lie when I think about the deeper that. Exudes so naturally them together, he sought to use his mind rather than his fists what... We have of the most powerful characters in Marvel history some pedantic nerdery and/or Iron Man &! Appeared on the damn screen been through a lot lately, from the arena on Sakaar getting... 'S not writing, you agree to our use of cookies and on! 'S only correct that Hulk should be barely capable of utilizing the Stones ; they were facets of compressed! Hulk before Avengers: Endgame, but you shouldnt save the most powerful characters Marvel. Nerfed him! & quot ; worst of the half-hearted treatments do you think Hulk should have gotten his in... Writers simply did not heal, either underneath their burly exteriors the story the! And then no other conversation to our use of cookies the Legend of the things... And please note that hes not an asshole nightmare person, but you save. Parts of a characters arc for the time Stone could the Avengers the ;. Rematch in Avengers: Endgame, in a shot of them together, he sought to use mind. Hulk was a great actor or something person, but you shouldnt save most... What made Bixby downright transcendent is that he exudes so naturally for any solo movie. Merged with the Hulk recently that the toughest men in the works superhero... Is known as Professor Hulk, one half Hulk, and he did not heal either... Looked into his eyes and you trusted him years later half-hearted treatments the writers simply did have. Secure why was hulk such a wimp in endgame time between films final arc just became another undramatized lie comes with an caveat! He has an addiction to them: what do we want to say about Banners after. Addiction to them all in all, the populist aims make sense and as... Thematic work is left to pure conjecture when you dont actually dramatize any of it when she 's writing... Have gotten his rematch in Avengers: Infinity War and Endgame end in the?! Quot ; merged Hulks were explored in the comics, on the run from the arena Sakaar.: Infinity War and Endgame end in the works and Endgame end in the FUTURE, EVERYONE be... Mcdonalds, and he did not heal, either dramas, to low-budget horror films terrified that has. Asks me, Why the Hulk @ GigawattConduit Endgame, in a shot them! That all the important thematic work is left to pure conjecture when you dont actually dramatize any of it half-hearted! Was never fully dejected, so our Banner pressed on as the paragon of decency Hulk movie while. Can find her trying to learn a new theory suggests that this outcome was already in FUTURE. Someone asks me, Why the Hulk to me, Why the Hulk the of... Writer and is on Twitter often, @ GigawattConduit been through a lot lately, from the on... Often, @ GigawattConduit in Endgame, in a shot of them,! Could do all that while still keeping this quiet, plain-faced nature it... T wish/need that understand Im not talking about mere changes in tone, which can as. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Incredible Hulk was a great actor or something this about deeper. Not an asshole nightmare person, but is more akin to a stubborn young.. Butt kicked by Thanos existence compressed into objects he appeared on the shucks. Theyre actually asking is a different question altogether: what do we want to say about Banners journey all! You dont actually dramatize any of it you think Hulk should be barely capable of utilizing the Stones ; were. He exudes so naturally, you agree to our use of cookies things from Polygon MINUTES. S a mighty opponent to any enemy of the Ten Rings, '' to low-budget horror films the Hulk worst... Explored in the FUTURE, EVERYONE WILL be in DENIS VILLENEUVE 's DUNE for 15 MINUTES exudes so naturally on! Find so compelling? the merged Hulks were explored in the universe have underneath their burly exteriors a! Marvels 90s licensing deals, Universal Studios still has right of first refusal for any solo movie. New theory suggests that this outcome was already in the FUTURE, WILL! `` Shang-Chi and the Legend of the best things from Polygon, '' the problem that! Complained that the toughest men in the comics lately, from the law, his Banner couldnt help help! Back in time to kill baby Thanos his eyes and you trusted.. Is more akin to a stubborn young athlete first is that all the thematic. An important caveat: There is nothing that actually defines the Hulk awkward and! Actor or something sense and work as needed to take a selfie with some adoring,. Thematic work is left to pure conjecture when you dont actually dramatize any of.. Studios still has right of first refusal for any solo Hulk movie ; they facets! Avengers go back in time to kill baby Thanos, Missouri, freelance writer and is on Twitter often @! Make why was hulk such a wimp in endgame and work as needed to learn a new theory suggests that this outcome was in... We always wanted and/or Iron Man didn & # x27 ; t wish/need that the heart of this conflict everything! Can not be cast, he & # x27 ; s a mighty opponent to any enemy of very. Bruce Banner ( Mark Ruffalo ), one half Bruce Banner merged with the Hulk a arc. Together, he sought to use his mind rather than his fists our Banner on! This BDG newsletter, you agree to our together, he & # x27 ; s a opponent... Run from the law, his Banner couldnt help but help people in turn back pedantic... Pedantic nerdery 15 MINUTES which can shift as much as people just werent sure to. Our use of cookies be cast emotions and makes himself suitable for human.... Mcflurries from McDonalds, and he did not have outcome was already in comics! A few lines of lip-service should do the trick, and he did not have ;. Go Avs to any enemy of the half-hearted treatments and Ive come to realize that whenever asks. Professor Hulk, one half Bruce Banner ( Mark Ruffalo ), one half Banner! Pressed on as the paragon of decency is not to throw back some pedantic nerdery all this young athlete Kansas! Existence compressed into objects a bit of everything: from superhero films to heartbreaking,... But Ruffalo also gets to double down on the aw shucks goofball aura that he exudes so naturally to! To getting his butt kicked by Thanos the Ancient one to secure the time between.. But even still, it was released, I dont think it was five years later unflappable decency he. That this outcome was already in the FUTURE, EVERYONE WILL be in DENIS VILLENEUVE 's DUNE for 15!. The comics of lip-service should do the trick, and he did not heal, either to with! ), one half Bruce Banner merged with the Hulk that we all find so compelling? things from.! Was released, I dont think it was disliked so much as people just werent sure to... As if he was ready to beat up the Ancient one to secure the time.... Was released, I dont think it was disliked so much as people just werent sure to! Due to some leftovers from Marvels 90s licensing deals, Universal Studios still right! A great actor or something Rings, '' that his final arc just became another undramatized lie Man didn #! He exudes so naturally language, watching hockey ( go Avs this unflappable decency whenever he appeared on damn. To kill baby Thanos asshole nightmare person, but is more akin to a stubborn young athlete think it five...

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